Brasilia has woken up gray. A dull atmosphere spreads across the Three Powers Plaza, the heart of the Brazilian executive, legislative, and judicial power. But it quickly dissipates upon entering the bustling Planalto Palace, where on the third floor President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva receives EL PAÍS.
The headquarters of the head of state, designed in 1956 by Oscar Niemeyer, is full of symbolism. It was one of the buildings stormed on January 8, 2023, by the mobs of former president Jair Bolsonaro. The coup attempt brought Brazilian democracy to the brink of the abyss and even today, although the far-right leader has been sentenced to 27 years in prison, he still influences national politics: Lula, who is preparing to run for a fourth term in October, will face Bolsonaro’s son as his main opponent.
—“We cannot allow this country to be destroyed again as it was for four years,” says Lula.
As soon as he enters the room, the president — blue suit, white shirt, matching tie — warmly greets the journalists and recounts details of the assault. He does so with a tone that, as the conversation progresses, turns into passion. Passion for politics, passion for the people, and even for football (he declares himself a fan of Atlético de Madrid in Spain). An almost youthful ardor that flushes the face of this metalworker, founder of the Workers’ Party and three-time president, and leads him to raise his arms and pound the table with his fists when he wants to emphasize something. The tone softens when he brings up an anecdote from his biography. Then, while talking about Fidel Castro, François Hollande, or Donald Trump, he leans back and throws a knowing look. The calm lasts just long enough to catch the listener and pull them back into his verbal whirlwind.
Lula is 80 years old and faces the world with the energy of someone much younger. “And I’m going to live 120 years,” he jokes, on the eve of traveling to Barcelona on Friday for a Spain-Brazil summit with Pedro Sánchez, and to participate on Saturday in the Democracy Always Forum.
Question. You have been president three times, went to jail, managed to annul the case, survived a coup attempt. Do you still have strength at this stage of your political career?
Answer. In life, I do everything with great passion. I dedicate 100% to everything I believe is possible to do, both inside and outside the government. It was like that in my childhood, in the factory, in the union, when creating my party, and when governing. I do not accept the word impossible. Everything is possible when one has the willingness to do it. And the cost of not doing it, in the medium and long term, is infinitely greater.
Q. Brazil has just experienced one of the worst crises with the United States, with clear interference, exorbitant tariffs, and sanctions against the judges handling the case against Bolsonaro. What did you learn from that clash?
A. I was struck that Trump’s arguments for imposing tariffs on Brazil were not true. That insistence on military force, ships, fighters… I decided to be very patient and told him, literally: ‘Two countries governed by two gentlemen of 80 years should talk with great maturity.’ We don’t have to agree ideologically. A head of state sits at the table thinking about the interests of his country. Also, I told Trump it was important to define what kind of leader one wants to be. I prefer to be a respected leader, not feared. No one has the right to be feared.
Q. And how would you define Trump?
A. He is playing a very wrong game. He starts from the premise that American economic, military, and technological strength determines the rules of the game. But it cannot be, because, deep down, it ends up creating problems for the United States. When he decided to attack Iran, I don’t know if he realized that the price of fuel would increase and the people would pay for it. When one is head of state, one must respect the sovereignty of other countries. It bothers me a lot that the UN Security Council, created to maintain peace, wages war. It’s as if the world were a ship adrift, without any institution guiding the civilizational behavior of nations. We are facing a very, very delicate situation: never since World War II have there been so many simultaneous conflicts. Just last year, 2.7 trillion dollars were spent on wars. With half of that, we could end illiteracy, the global energy problem, and hunger for 630 million people. When will we reconsider…?
“The world is a ship adrift”
Q. And isn’t it that the institutions we had to prevent conflicts are obsolete?
A. The time has come to redefine the United Nations to give it credibility because otherwise Trump is right. International institutions do not fulfill the role for which they were created. And why? Because the five countries of the Security Council, which should have exemplary behavior, do not. Neither the invasion of Iraq, nor that of France and the United Kingdom in Libya, nor Putin’s in Ukraine, nor Israel’s massacre in Gaza went through the Security Council. The lords of peace have become lords of war. In Africa, there are countries with more than 120 million inhabitants and none are on the Security Council. Neither Brazil, Germany, India… And the veto right must end. The geopolitics of 1945 is not valid for 2026.
Q. Some think that in the short and medium term this will not be resolved and that it is advisable to rearm to avoid abuse by superpowers.
A. That is the problem. Everyone is induced to rearm. In Brazil, we believed in disarmament and promulgated a Constitution in 1988 that prohibits manufacturing nuclear weapons. What happened? The United States did not disarm, Russia neither. China made them. India. Pakistan. North Korea. And here we are almost unprotected, with a land border of 16,800 kilometers and another 8,500 of coast. But I don’t want to invest in weapons, but in books, food, employment. The problem is that the European Union has just proposed 800 billion euros for defense, the United Kingdom is rearming, Japan too… Someone has to take the initiative. I have already called Chinese President Xi Jinping, Indian Prime Minister Modi, Putin, Macron, everyone, asking them to meet, to discuss. Because Trump has no right to get up in the morning and threaten a country. He was not elected for that and his Constitution does not allow it. It is essential that the powerful have more responsibility in maintaining peace.
“A Third World War would be a tragedy ten times more powerful than the Second”
Q. In this war context, after what happened in Venezuela and the new US security doctrine, are you not afraid of more interventions in Latin America? Does Brazil feel safe?
A. I feel safe. This country, for the first time in history, has a former president in prison and four four-star generals incarcerated. Here democracy works, it is an example for the United States. My war is the war of argument. And I want to fight it at a negotiation table. I want more free trade. The EU and Mercosur gave the world a lesson with the agreement that comes into force on May 1. Almost 750 million inhabitants, a GDP of 22 trillion dollars, it is a very successful start. Our beloved UN has no power for absolutely anything. For God’s sake, a Third World War would be a tragedy ten times more powerful than the Second!
Q. Do you see it as possible?
A. It could happen if they keep believing they can get up in the morning and shoot anyone. The only way to avoid it is to strengthen multilateralism and democracy.
Q. But do you really believe Russia is willing to collaborate in that international order? And, seeing what happened with Ukraine, shouldn’t you have been more critical of Vladimir Putin?
A. Brazil was very critical. At no time did it recognize Russia’s right to invade Ukrainian territory. What Brazil maintained was that the solution was through the negotiation table. Many people were wrong; Biden thought he would destroy Russia in a short time. And Russia thought it would destroy Ukraine in a short time. They were wrong. The war has already lasted four years. How many lives, how many dollars, how much destruction has it caused? And does anyone believe we will stop there? It will not stop.
Q. And do you really not fear that there could be more interventions in Latin America?
A. Honestly, I don’t think so. It would be so absurd… I want to work with everyone. I’m not old enough for a new cold war between China and the United States. I want more negotiation, more democracy, more multilateralism. What happened in Venezuela started with Hugo Chávez’s election in 2000… The United States has been involved in Venezuela since then.
“It cannot be that the United States believes it can manage Venezuela”
Q. And right now, shouldn’t the Venezuelan government call elections already?
A. That is a problem for Venezuela, not Brazil. But if I were Venezuelan and vice president, and if what happened had happened, I would take office and call general elections. That’s what I would do. There would have to be an electoral process agreed with the opposition so that the result would be accepted and Venezuela would have peace again. What cannot be is that the United States believes it can manage Venezuela. That is not normal, it has no place in democracy.
Q. What is your prognosis for Cuba? Will the regime fall?
A. Seventy years of blockade have no explanation. If those who do not sympathize with the Cuban regime were concerned about the Cuban people, why are they not concerned about Haiti, which does not have a communist regime? Cuba needs a chance. How can a country survive without receiving food or energy?
Q. Argentina granted political refugee status to a person convicted for the January 8 coup attempt. Isn’t that a hostile gesture towards Brazil?
A. I have no relationship with President Javier Milei nor am I interested in having one. His decisions do not make me nervous. He has to solve his problems with the Argentine people. We will see what happens when his term ends and what the result is of what he sowed in Argentina.
Q. In October there are presidential elections in Brazil and polls point to a tie with Bolsonaro supporters. How do you explain that they retain so much strength after a coup attempt and encouraging US interference?
“Bolsonarism will not govern this country again because the people prefer democracy”
A. Bolsonarism will not govern this country again because the people prefer democracy. I have that conviction. And the fact that Brazilian society is more divided is not new either. I have never won an election in the first round. And the world has become even more polarized; the far right gains ground with a lying and denialist discourse, using digital networks like never before, and now with the help of artificial intelligence.
Q. What do you fear more in this election: disinformation campaigns on the internet or possible US interference?
A. I am not afraid. My responsibility is to ensure that the Brazilian people receive the correct information, so that the day they have to decide, they do not do so with fake news. That is my obligation. And foreign interference does not worry me at all.
Q. Do you then confirm that you will run for a fourth term? Or, if the polls get complicated, would you withdraw?
A. Look, I admire Messi, who may still be called up by Argentina… I am in very good health. I have an agreement with God to live 120 years, because I really like life. And I am preparing to run in the elections, I am preparing for the fourth term with the conviction that it is fully possible. We cannot allow this country to be destroyed again as it was for four years. I am very, very, very committed…
Q. But the elections are tight…
A. They haven’t even started. This will be like a Barcelona-Real Madrid classic: in the week of the match, everyone thinks they will win. But when the team enters the field, the most competent prevails.
“We have the obligation to show humanity that democracy is better than authoritarianism”
Q. And where does the far right get so much strength? Could there be other causes, like disenchantment with what modern democracies offer?
A. Democracy now owes the people an explanation, because democracy is not just receiving the vote on election day, you have to show that you will work better, earn more, eat better, have more access to culture and education… If we don’t do that, why would the people believe in democracy? We have the obligation to show humanity that it is better than authoritarianism. Our problem is that we started to realize late that it failed in building the so-called welfare state, in education, in health… That’s why I’m going to Barcelona to participate in the Democracy Always Forum with presidents and ministers from America, Europe, Africa, and Asia.
Q. Are you seeking an alternative to Trump’s unilateralism?
A. It will not be an anti-Trump meeting. We are going to discuss democracy: see where it failed and what needs to be done to fix it. I’ll tell you a story. When François Hollande was elected president of France, he requested a conversation with me and asked: ‘Lula, what do you think I have to do for my government to really succeed?’. I told him: ‘Do you remember the speech you gave to win the elections? Put it at the head of your bed and every morning when you get up, read what you said so you don’t forget what you promised.’ That’s how democracy has to be. I can’t run a progressive campaign and then govern conservatively.
Q. What do the serious racist attacks against footballer Vinicius in Spain mean for Brazil?
A. It is not possible that in the 21st century we have racism in theoretically advanced countries like Spain, the United Kingdom, or Italy. Any act of discrimination is abominable.
Q. When I interviewed you in March 2021, during the covid time, you were confined and I remember you said: “Politics is my DNA, I will only stop doing it when I die.” Do you still think so?
A. Politics only makes sense when you have a cause. Why do I joke that I’m going to live 120 years? I can’t stop the planet’s rotation, so the years pass and I will keep aging. Today I am 80. Next year I will be 81. But one does not age by the number of years, but by the lack of motivation. Every single day I get up with the willingness to do more tomorrow than today. It is the condition to survive. I prepare to be motivated 24 hours a day. I don’t know the word depression. Nothing, absolutely nothing, can disturb me. I don’t make decisions with a 39-degree fever. I am not a slave to the cellphone. After eight at night, don’t call me. I am not a slave to the digital world…
Q. And looking back, what was the worst moment of your career? Jail?
A. Nooooo… The worst was the first election I lost, in 1982, for the governorship of the State of São Paulo. My party was only two years old. It was the first time I ran and we gathered so many people in the street that I started to believe I was going to win. I was a big novelty: a metalworker running for governor. I gave many autographs and I think I didn’t get as many votes as autographs I signed. I was very disappointed; I even thought about quitting politics. Then I had a conversation with Fidel Castro; I told him I was thinking about quitting, that I had only obtained 1,250,000 votes. And Fidel replied: ‘Lula, do you know any place in the world where a worker has obtained 1,250,000 votes? It doesn’t exist.’ And that motivated me to continue.
Q. And after so much political life, so many struggles, do you make a positive assessment?
A. Those who must judge are others. I know we have done many things, and I also know there is always much more to do. My concern is never to be satisfied with what I have already done, because I could get complacent. I have to always demand of myself, always, always. That’s how I survive.
Q. By the way, did you follow the mission to the Moon?
A. Nooo, I have my feet on the ground, where I have many problems. I have no vote on the Moon.
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